4 Troop, Number 2 Commando

Hi everyone, I am finally going to sit down and write a pamphlet on the history of 4 troop, and what they got up to during their time together.

If anyone has info (and I am sure Bob and Janet have!!) especially on how they were selected and posted to that troop, I would be very interested.

The project will take time, but eventually will be posted under the 'History' section of this web site.

Photos would also be a help. If you wish to contact me direct, let me know via this site, send an e-mail address, and i'll do the rest.

Cheers for now. Roy Evans

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 10/08/2008 18:26:59

Hi Roy.

It looks like you are going to be busy.

We will help if we can. You are aware of the picture of 4 Troop on the Gallery taken at Lockerbie Scotland in August 1941. If you want, Bob will provide information on those in the picture. 4 Troop didn't do anything prior to this picture being taken.

We will be in touch,

Janet & Bob

Hi there Janet,

Sorry not to have replied earlier. Kate and I have been away in our caravan down to Dorset on the South coast.

I wouldn't say its been too wet, but on a couple of occasions we had a moat around the caravan !!

We have had the wettest Summer for years, flooding again in parts of the UK, the same as last year, but fortunately none near us.

I would be fascinated to know who the guys are in the photograph, I have sent off for Harry Lumm's service record, so we shall see what it says. When I get it, I'll send a copy over to Bob to read. I am sure it will jog the odd memory or two.

Anyway, back to work tomorrow, end of Summer hols. Perversely, after all the rain, its been a lovely day today and the forecast is good for the rest of the week. Are well, such is life. Bye for now Roy.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 21/02/2010 17:47:55

In response to the requests I have received that asked for information concerning the members of 4 Troop, I will now attempt to record what I know or remember of as many of the 52 men pictured as possible. Refer to the photo posted previously, also in the No. 2 Cdo Gallery at:

http://www.commandoveterans.org/cdoGallery/v/units/2/4+troop/4+troop+2cdo+1941.jpg.html?g2_imageViewsIndex=1

CAPTION TO PHOTO OF 4 TROOP NO.2 COMMANDO AUGUST. 1941 - starting with back row

HAYES DAVIDSON ROWE TARKINTON BISHOP BLOWER FICHETT

PARKES PRESTON GARLAND ALDRED HALLOWS SMITH JONES, C MATHER SIMPSON BRIAN UPSON DEVANEY

JONES, W McCLEAN BROOKES CUNNINGHAM MATHER MOULSDALE ECKMAN GALLAHER COCKINE ROBINSON PEACHY FAHY

SOWERBUTTS MORT OLIVER SHERMAN HAINES BLACK HOOPER VANDERVERVE MORLAND WARDLE KNOWLES STANLEY MILNER

DIAMOND COUGHLAN MASON MADEL AIRD TURPIN MAYLOTT JACKSON

Capt. R. H. HOOPER King?s Regt. - Liverpool. Was at Vaagso, St. Nazaire and Sicily actions. Three times wounded, awarded M.C. , survived the war.

Lieut. G.D. BLACK South Lancs. Regt. Twice wounded at Vaagso, awarded M.C. Leader of the raid on Glomsfjord, Norway, captured and executed near Berlin, Oct. 1942. Capt. Black was awarded the D.S.O. for the Glomsfjord operation.

Lieut. J.E. VANDERWERVE King?s Regt. - Liverpool, age 23. John was lost at St. Nazaire 28-3-42.

T.S.M. G.E. HAINES East Surrey Regt. Sgt. Major Haines was transferred to 5 Troop prior to the St. Nazaire raid. He was awarded the D.C.M. for his part in that operation. George survived the war.

Sgt. T. SHERMAN King?s Regt. - Liverpool. Tom was promoted to T.S.M. after George Haines left 4 Troop. Following the St. Nazaire raid he went off-strength and was commissioned. He did not return to the Commandos, finishing his military career as an Hon. Colonel in a reserve organization. Awarded at O.B.E.

Sgt. E. MILNER South Lancs. Regt. Nobody seems to know what happened to Ernie Milner. He seems to have just disappeared round about November 1942.

Gdmn. F. HAYES Grenadier Guards. K.I.A. at Vaagso 27-12-41. Frank was age 22.

Pte. F. PEACHEY South Lancs. Regt. Fred was wounded at St. Nazaire, Salerno and the Argenta Gap. He also participated in the Vaagso raid. He finished the war as a L./Sgt. And was awarded the M.M. and bar.

Pte. M.D. AIRD King?s Regt. - Liverpool. K.I.A. at St. Nazaire, 28-3-42. Michael was age 24.

L/Cpl. E.J. BRYAN King?s Regt. - Liverpool. K.I.A. at St. Nazaire, 28-3-42. Edward was age 25.

L/Cpl. J. COUGHLAN King?s Regt. - Liverpool. K.I.A. at St. Nazaire, 28-3-42. John was age 30.

L/Cpl. H.P. CUNNINGHAM King?s Regt. - Liverpool. K.I.A. at St. Nazaire, 28-3-42. Henry was age 22.

Pte. T. DIAMOND King?s Regt. - Liverpool. K.I.A. at St. Nazaire, 28-3-42. Tom was age 19.

L/Cpl. H. MATHER South Lancs. Regt. K.I.A. at St. Nazaire, 28-3-42. Harry was age 22.

Pte. J. MAYLOTT South Lancs. Regt. K.I.A. at St. Nazaire, 28-3-42. Jesse was age 21.

Gdmn. S. ROBINSON Grenadier Guards. K.I.A. at St. Nazaire, 28-3-42. Syd was age 21.

Pte. J. JACKSON South Lancs. Regt. K.I.A. at Salerno, 13-9-43. Joe was age 23.

Pte. A. BLOWER King?s Regt. - Liverpool. D.O.W. at Bone, Algeria, 17-9-43. Alfred was 24.

Pte. H. ROWE Manchester Regt. No information available, he seems to have departed unseen sometime in 1943.

Sgt. P. MORLAND South Lancs. Regt. Was made T.S.M. after St. Nazaire and fought in the Sicily, Salerno, Yugoslavia and Albania operations. Awarded D.C.M. Peter survived the war.

Sgt. A. WARDLE Lancashire Fusiliers. Was at St. Nazaire and after returned posted to O.C.T.U. and S.O.S. No. 2 Commando. There is some indication that he returned to Commando service - No. 3? - as a Captain.

Cpl. A. MORT South Lancs. Regt. Fought in St. Nazaire, Sicily, Italy, Yugoslavia and Albania operations. Finished the war with the rank of T.S.M. Alec passed on after a long illness, January, 2000.

Pte. G. DEVANEY King?s Regt. - Liverpool. George survived the war and is living in the Merseyside area, but is said to be in somewhat frail health.

More names and information to be added later.

Bob, you are a star!

I've read your piece on Graham Black. I actually went to Colditz last year for a visit. Its an amazingly beautiful spot in a lovely part of Germany, but not I guess if you know your for the 'chop'.

Take care - lousy weather here today, so about to go out to workshop to make a cider press. (we have lots of apples this year) Cheers, Roy.

In the caption to the No. 2 Commando photo provided by Bob Bishop, he notes that nothing more was known of Sgt Ernie Milner after Sept 1942. He certainly remained in No. 2 Commando to the end of hostilities and served in Yogoslavia, Sicily and Italy. Perhaps he moved troop? I've attached a few photos, Ernie Milner is in each, any ideas about the others?

I have recently been put in touch with John Wall, a veteran of the South Lancs & 5 Commando.

During our conversations, we talked about the role of the territorials - he was a terrier in 2/4 South Lancs in the years up to the war.

He tells me there were 10 HD territorial battalions, 5 of which formed Independent Companies for the Norway Expeditionary Force in 1940. The 2/4 South Lancs were formed into No.4 Independent Company.

Upon their return to the UK, an officer (Stuart Chant I think), visited the Company and asked for volunteers for 5 Commando. John volunteered.

Shortly after the Independent Companies were formed into No.2 Commando.

I mention this because I noticed in your list the high number of SL's & Kings Liverpool casualties, I suspect that the Kings casualties were also terriers from their pre-war territorial battalion.

John told me that they were not trained as the later volunteers were a la Achnacarry, as much of the training that the Independent companies had carried out was similar in nature.

I will send John the photo's - if the guys were SL's he may well know them as fellow terriers.

Regards

Pete

Ps We have now created a definitive ROH database for the South lancs in WW2, each entry links to its CWGC entry, and we will be creating another page for soldiers who specialised, ie Commandos, SOE, etc, with a very brief bio on each page.

Regards

Pete

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 22/05/2009 23:37:50

Pete

The below facts and a lot more detailed information about the formation of the Independents and their move into Commando units can be found in a book put together by the curator of the Liverpool Scottish Regimental Museum trust, Dennis Reeves. It is not on general sale but there may be a few left which can be ordered via their website. I recommed it.

In April 1940 HQ 55th (West Lancashire) Division issued Divisonal Operation Order 5 authorising the formation of No.4 Independent Company. At the time the 55th were a two Brigade Motor Division consisting of
164 Brigade : 9th Battalion Kings Regt, 1/4th Batallion The South Lancashire Regt, and 2/4th Batallion the South Lancashire Regt;
165 Brigade : 5th Battalion Kings Regt, 1st Batallion Liverpool Scottish QOCH, and 2nd Battalion Liverpool Scottish QOCH.

Other Independents Companies formed were:
No.1 Independent Company formed from 52nd Lowland Division ;
No.2 Independent Company formed from 53rd Welsh Division;
No.3 Independent Company formed from 54th East Anglian Division;
No.5 Independent Company formed from 56th London Division;
No.6 Independent Company formed from 9th Scottish Division;
No.7 Independent Company formed from 15th Scottish Division;
No.8 Independent Company formed from 18th Eastern Divsion ;
No.9 Independent Company formed from 38th Welsh Divsion ;
No.10 Indepndent Company formed from 66th East Lancashire Divsion.

The first 5 Independent Companies sailed to Norway under the name Scissorforce to join Operation Avonmouth - the British Expeditionary Force. On their return they were then formed into Special Service Battalions. Nos. 1,2,3,4,5 Ind. Coys. forming the 1st Special Service Battalion A and B Coys. No.2 Cdo was then formed from B Coy. 1st SS Battalion under Lt Col. Newman at Paignton.

My father and uncle and most of the Liverpool Scottish were territorials and ended up in 5 Troop No.2. under Capt. Roy. I believe you are right about the high number of Territorials. I think I recall Bob Bishop, whom we all miss, stating that only about 30% of No.2 went thru Achnacarry. Many of the first intake of No.2 were killed, injured , or taken prisoner at St Nazaire in March 42. I believe Achnacarry started around or after that date

Pete,

I do believe that was exactly as described by John, unfortunately my scribbled notes have gone walkabout.

Liverpool Scottish was the other battalion he mentioned, I think they were the Cameron Highlanders at that time.

My research has centred around the South Lancs - its too hard otherwise. Even then, it can be confusing ! The 2/4 South Lancs as discussed became an Independent Company, but the 2/4 Bn. then seems to have been rebuilt using a mix of draftees and regulars, who later became the first company of the 13th Bn. Parachute Regiment.

Its ironic that terriers who had joined a 'home defence' service, became exactly the opposite, and probably the best known soldiers ever.

thanks for the info on the 55th, i havent got that far yet but it will prove useful.

regards

Pete

Hello Janet,
Thanks for your private message.
I'm sorry that I didn't know that Bob had passed away, he has done so much keep fond memories of his comrades alive.
As for my father, Ernie Milner, he had the proudest recollections of his wartime life with No.2 Commando, I rather think that nothing much came to match it in civvy street. He originally enlisted with 5 Kings (Liverpool) regiment on 17/1/1940 and his army number was 3775340. Ernie would, in later life, gloss over the grimmer experiences more often choosing to describe the lighter side; during a training show for the top brass, for example, he remembered the embarrassment of his backpack filling with water whilst crossing a water-filled quarry when the rope which supported him (and others) was too slack! His strength as a back-stroke swimmer then coming very much in handy! Apart from the losses of comrades and friends in action, one of his saddest memories was the cruelties inflicted on one another by partisan groups in Vis, Yugoslavia and his unit having to "about face" whilst summary executions took place in their presence. Ernie was wounded twice, once slightly from grenade shrapnell and then, more seriously from a single gun-shot wound in the shoulder. The latter put him out of action for a while and it occured, I think, in August 1944. I have his AB64 (Service and Pay Book), which doesn't unfortunately inform very much, but it does record his medical downgrade for 6 months, following, I assume, his GSW; and the award of 28 days leave and dispatch to a special reception centre on repatriation in October 1945. What is lacking in the official content of his AB64 is partly compensated for with hand-written notes: compass and side-arm serial numbers for example and useful phrases in Serbo Croat such as "do not shoot, I am English". I have attached a few more photos; they will I fear not be of much used for the archivist, but they might jog a memory somewhere. One, showing Ernie and "Jack" is annotated with reference to "the flies", I expect this is in North Africa. I have others, single subjects only, but one is annotated: 20/4/45, in Naples.
Full marks for all that Bob has done, and you continue to do, for the CVA.
Regards,
Ernie Milner (jnr)

hello, my names is Thomas Henry Kenny, i am named after my great uncle Henry Cunninham, and i have noticed he is mentioned above, i know about when and were he died and the mission he wwas on but was wondering like is there any pictures as my grandad has only one tattered old one and was only a child when he died.

any help will be appreciated thanks

Re photo of 4 troop 2 commando, august 1941, Lockerbie

i have a paper copy of this very same photo, courtesy of ex-troop sgt major Tom Sherman and i wish to point out that the trooper named as Robinson (3rd from right, 3rd row from the back) is more likely to be my late uncle Ted Sinnott who was then L/Cpl and a member of 4 troop, 2 cmdo. Indeed this same person in the photo was identified as my uncle by Tom Sherman who i have had the pleasure of corresponding with and meeting several times at the Op Chariot reunions in London

Ted Sinnott took part in the raids on Vaagso and St Nazaire where he was taken POW after his ML306 engaged the 'Jaguar' moewe class destroyer out at sea...

i have just recently joined this wonderful association and look forward to sharing relevant informaion and corresponding with fellow members. of course i am very interested in any photos or links to my late uncle within the membership. when i last visited the Spean Bridge museum/display a few years ago, i was able to identify my late uncle in a photograph on display - some members may have seen this photo which shows several survivors taken from ML306 under German guard on the harbour quayside
after the raid

best wishes to all

John Sinnott

Photo information in the gallery updated with John's comments re his uncle. PM sent to John

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 20/05/2010 23:09:44

To anyone who may be able to help.

I worked with Alex Mort and his son Edmund in the 1960s/70s

I was sad to read of his death and wonder if anyone can give further info of his service during the war and possibly know his sons address?

Tony